Religion and Gay

While conceptually I understand why so many religions take issue with Gay People, emotionally it just pisses me off. Let’s go back to where some of this bullshit started. And, by the way if you are religious and feel that your religion justifiably can discriminate against gay people (or anyone else for that matter), I do not apologize for what I am about to say – I do invite you to comment but I warn you, you should probably educate yourself on the foundations of your religion before you start quoting scripture with me. I will give you a clue…HISTORY. Don’t start quoting your book. 

Let’s take it back….way back. Homosexuality has been around since man/woman.  You can find homosexuality documented from any continent you research and find times throughout history where it was accepted: In Africa there is a depiction of Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum, a gay couple, kissing from the 5th Dynasty; In China you can find stories as early as 600BCE where they wrote stories of gay sex (which was accepted by the way); Ancient Greece a man taking on a male relationship, in addition to his wife, was something many wealthy and powerful men did; Ancient Rome both men and women took on same sex lovers; Some Native American tribes held gay men in high honor. They were often the shaman’s. Others, encouraged their gay men to take on the role of a wife with another man. This was documented both in their stories and their art…need I go on?  The point is this, all of these societies had some sort of religion and religion condoned and practiced homosexuality. 

So, when did religion start to get its panty’s in a twirl over homosexuality? Mostly, I think,  it had to do with procreation. You will find that when a religion is just starting out or when a famine/war has hit its population, suddenly and quite calculatedly the heads of the religion need people to stop practicing in pleasure and start getting it on with havin’ babies. Time to start pumpin out those new parishioners! If you do not have followers, religion cannot survive. You got it, I am saying that it was a survival tactic. No more drinking, no more playing, no more wasting precious semen on whores or on men, no more special women relationships…time to stop the fun and start birthin’ da new crop. Think I am full of shit? Research it. I did and I was shocked as shit. But, it makes sense…does it not? When times are good…anything goes. When times get rough…well, fuck it we all suffer together. 

Now you say….but wait, what about what my religious doctrine says on Saturday’s and Sunday’s?? What about the book that we read from? Lets be practical here folks – men wrote these books and they picked which stories stayed in and which stories were cut out. Many of the religions are founded on some rebel’s teaching (Jesus was a rebel, don’t get it twisted…so was Buddha) and these books were not written until 30, 50, 600 years later. Are you seriously trying to tell me that with an oral history being passed around from the time these radical ideas were being espoused, that someone trying to gain rank and power did not alter the words of these prophets? It happened and there is documentation of this in any religion. People try to gain power and they twist belief into assisting them gain this power (does Jim Jones ring a bell with you? How about Jim Baker?). Most people could not even read at the time these books were being written and there is absolutely no doubt that these books were NOT written by the people they are following. Jesus did not pick up the pen and write down his thoughts. DID NOT HAPPEN. 

So why on earth would religion continue to say being Gay is baaaad??? My opinion is that in order to say that you are good, you must show what is bad. You must pick out a group of people and say: Now this, this is who is not like us and because they are not like us they are BAD. Not Michael Jackson “Bad” but more like unholy. Mormon’s did it quite successfully with African American’s. They picked out a group of people and said: Ya see, God has marked them with a different skin tone to show they are bad! Jehovah Witnesses point the finger at anyone who does not subscribe to their beliefs. No socializing with them. Catholic’s feel that being gay is bad but continue to support their priests foolin around with kids. Again, this is just my theory. 

What infuriated me recently was the Proposition 8 movement in California. What the fuck people? I mean seriously, what the fuck. We voted to discriminate against an entire group of people and do you know who funded this hate vote? Religious folks (and I hope someone sues their ass to have their tax exemption taken away). I have maintained that I will continue to “discuss” with my religious friends the basis for their discrimination, but it hurts more than you can imagine. To think that people would have preferred that even though their parents could not stick it out together, they would rather have my parents have no rights at all. None. Domestic Partnership you say? I’ll talk about that another time. This is an attempt for legalized discrimination. Sure, let’s make Gay People contribute to the social services we are take for granted, but we will treat them like Second Class Citizens. No marriage or property rights can be held in that relationship….no spouses can collect Social Security Benefits should something happen to their 20 year partner. Nope. But, these people can enjoy the fruits of gay people’s contribution into that system. Again I say…what the fuck.

10 responses to “Religion and Gay

  1. I think you are ritght, same thing happening in mexico city they gave us domestic ´partnership, but waht about those 20 years old realtionships?? I say to my friends we should not pay taxes since we are not treated like citizens then we should not act like one….

    love you writing babe..keep on doing it.

  2. DF passed a domestic partnership? Wow…that is a big deal. Let’s hope the next step comes soon for legalized marriage. Do you know how much money the church would make off of a gay church wedding??? DANG! They could make bank!

  3. The bible not only mentions that homosexuality is wrong, it also condemns divorce… so if we (as gay men and women) are not allowed to get married, straight couples should not be allowed to get divorced… let’s all be unhappy together! (us not being able to be one with the person we love, and them being stuck with somebody they don’t love anymore!

  4. You really need to understand what Catholicism is all about. Perhaps this brief explanation will help:

    God is love. Love is making a gift of yourself to another. Love is self-giving. The opposite of love is selfishness. Authentic love always exhibits 4 basic qualities; it is always free, total, faithful, and fruitful. Otherwise, is has been corrupted by selfishness, which makes one want to possess something/someone for one’s own pleasure.

    God exists in a communion formed by self-giving love: the Trinity.

    The Father begets the Son by loving him; the Son is begotten by the Father, letting himself be loved and receiving from him the capacity to love; the Holy Spirit is love given in total gratuitousness by the Father, received with full gratitude by the Son, and returned by him to the Father. – Pope John Paul II 7/29/98

    God is not a solitude, but a family. — Pope John Paul II

    Authentic love is always open to new life (i.e., fruitful).
    God created man out of love.
    God created man in his image and likeness.
    God created man to share his divine life.
    God’s hope (expectation?) was that man would live a life of perfect self-giving love in imitation of his creator.
    Man would procreate, building a large family of God on earth, obedient and faithful in love to him and to each other.
    True love gives total freedom to the other.
    Man was completely free to choose to respond to God’s love and God’s plan by giving of himself to God in return.
    Giving of himself to God would involve man’s obedience and faithfulness to God.

    Man was disobedient and unfaithful to God (Adam & Eve…) (selfish).
    God immediately promised a plan of salvation for man.

    God begins to form a people [family/tribe/nation/kingdom] that will freely return his love and live in imitation of their creator.
    God continued to reach out to his expanding family.
    He sent a law for them to follow (Moses. 10 Commandments, etc.).
    He sent prophets to them as his messengers.

    But God’s people continually fell into a cycle of
    Unfaithfulness / Tragedy / Repentance / Forgiveness / Faithfulness / Pride (forgetting God) / Unfaithfulness…
    His people repeatedly fail to keep the law and be faithful to him (i.e., failed to love him in response to his love for them).

    In the fullness of time, God sent his Son, Jesus, out of his love and his desire to see his people restored.

    Jesus was perfectly faithful, obedient, humble, self-giving in love.
    Jesus does what Israel (God’s chosen people) failed to do: he freely did only God’s will, which was primarily to proclaim the truth about the kingdom of God (and witness to it via signs and wonders – miracles, exorcisms, etc).

    Jesus endured all the pain and suffering that came upon him because of his perfect faithfulness to the Father……to the point of death.
    (His proclamation of the truth caused him to be hated by the religious authorities of his time. The more he proclaimed the truth and worked miracles (i.e., did God’s will, his mission in life), the more they hated him, until finally their selfishness caused them to kill him)
    The only way that Jesus could have avoided being put to death would have been by selfishly being unfaithful to the will of his Father.
    But Jesus freely chose death rather than unfaithfulness to God.

    This is why his sacrifice is accepted by God in atonement for our sins: because, in his human nature, Jesus remained totally faithful to God.

    By his sacrifice, Jesus cleared away the impediments to Divine Mercy for all of us.
    Jesus won for us the grace which is necessary for us to be faithful to God.
    We must come to God through Jesus – he wasn’t sent by the Father for nothing!!
    We need the grace that Jesus won for us; we cannot be faithful by our own efforts.
    Jesus rises from the dead to prove that life is eternal.

    Together, the Father & Son send the Holy Spirit
    Who brings God’s grace
    And is God’s life in us

    The Spirit is also the love and the personal gift which contains every created gift: life, grace and glory. The mystery of this communion shines forth in the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, enlivened by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit himself makes us “one in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28) and thus integrates us within the same unity which binds the Son to the Father. We are left in wonder at this intense and intimate communion between God and us! – Pope John Paul II 7/29/98

    Remember, God wants to form a people that will freely return his love and live in imitation of their creator. (vs establishing a written law to be followed)

    Jesus came to restore the formation of this people, not just to write a book [the bible].

    Church = family of God
    A family of God’s creatures
    A family with this common trait: acceptance of Jesus as their Savior
    A family adopted by the Father

    A family of people who will now use the grace that God now offers us through Jesus (sacraments, liturgy, etc.)

    To enable us to be faithful

    To freely choose to put him and others first

    Despite any pain and suffering we must endure

    Just like Jesus did!!

  5. Too much to type

  6. Reza: I haven’t the slightest clue what you typed

    Walt: I don’t quite know what you are trying to say…but, my issue with the Catholic Church is targeting a group of people to show how they are different from these people. It is a way of showing what is good and bad.

    Claus: I grew up just North of San Francisco…ohhh what a beautiful area! And I agree with you – if an entity is going to pick one doctrine from the bible to preach from, ya gotta follow the others too.

  7. I grew up in Mexico, went to a Catholic school and went to church. The funny thing is that I never heard anyone condemning homosexuals until I moved to Canada. Mexico is by far a more conservative contry than the States for example (and Canada for sure!) would be, but I seriously never heard even our priests say anything negative against any group of people. It was based more on love and respect and being a good person!

    • I head that Mexico just passed a domestic partnership law! I am so proud! I lived in GDL for a year and was so welcomed by the gay community….

  8. You are making a very common mistake: you look at history and assume that back then people thought just the way you did. Well, they didn’t. First of all, any talk about “homosexuality” before 19th Century is much like discussing the Communist party in Medieval Europe — the concept just wasn’t there. All the examples you mention show just one thing — homosexual behaviour, which is nowhere near the same as homosexual orientation, the latter being a rather modern invention — or discovery, if you prefer. You mention it yourself — the Greeks took a same-sex lover in addition to their wives (although that again conjures up modern-day images which are not exactly accurate), but it does not follow that they were gay or bi — nor were they straight, for that matter, because the very concept of sexual orientation did not exist. They were men, and a man was expected to act in certain ways, that’s all.

    And as to the fact that religions condemn homosexual behaviour (and really, that’s what they condemn, they’re still trying to grasp what exactly should they be saying about homosexual orientation) because that won’t “pump out” children — well, I don’t really understand what’s so shocking about that. I mean, they’ve been telling that all along. It’s like saying “You know why people still eat sweets? It satisfies their sugar craving! How shocking!” I mean, that’s the selling point. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that one group of people wants to survive, and it’s only perfectly logical that, in order to do so, they encourage behaviour that promotes their survival and discourage behaviour that endangers it. Yup, it is all about children. Sure. Does anybody really buy the idea that there is something inherently immoral (which again is another man-made and historically changing term) about homosexual behaviour as such? C’mon, people. Even the most hard-core religious gay-bashers say: “We don’t mind if those perverts engage in their disgusting behaviour in their own bedrooms, but they shouldn’t be boasting about their perversions in public where normal people may see them”. They certainly wouldn’t be saying that about people who murder other people — even by mutual consent — in the privacy of their own homes.

    So, yeah, you got the right reason. Not that it was anything surprising.

    • I think you have some good points here, but you need to think through a little more. We could go back and forth on, what you say is, the concept of homosexuality but this is more or less saying the term was not present which does not mean the people did not exist. This is kinda like saying the concept of how a baby was conceived was a mystery until someone discovered it and labeled it. All the clues were there prior to the labeling and discovery. Homosexuality was present even if it was not labeled. My point about history is to say that homosexuality is natural and is not a choice. The term “orientation” is what someone identifies with and is not what I am talking about. I am talking about something one cannot help about themselves. The love relationships are the important point here – sex is what the church focuses on which you seem to agree with.

      The church has not been telling us all along they condemn gay people for not pumping out children. You are completely false in this. They have been saying that God does not approve. This is what angers me. They will not deviate from their position on this and the church essentially wrote this edict into the Bible during a time where they o needed to produce more followers. It seems this was born out of necessity rather than belief. Your discussion here could be more directive but it’s not. Again you make a ridiculous comparison to sweets. We live in a world now where we have many children in need of parents and not in a time where the church is losing their flock due to famine. There is no reason for the church to continue to focus on their consistent bashing of the gay community. And, yes the bashers do mind what people do behind closed doors or many states would not still have sodomy laws still active and being enforced on their books. Gay people are fighting their civil rights and the church is determined to deny them this. Last time I checked civil laws and the church were not supposed to be co-mingling. I’m not sure where you get your definition of “normal.” Being Gay is normal.

      That being said – this was a pretty good retort.

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